the Henny Flynn podcast
A space to settle in and listen — and see where the episode takes you. This gentle, reflective podcast is an invitation into deeper self-awareness with profound self-compassion. Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change, and find a greater sense of flow.
There are no fixed answers offered here — just space to be with what’s true, and to grow from there. If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you.
Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds.
the Henny Flynn podcast
Empathy and Transformation: Navigating Menopause in the Workplace with Pamela Windle (S14E6)
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Imagine navigating the challenges of menopause while excelling in your career—could a compassionate workplace make all the difference? Join us as we sit down with Pamela Windle, a passionate women's health coach who sheds light on the transformative power of empathy in corporate environments. Pamela shares her journey from confronting her health struggles in 2012 to becoming an integrated women's health coach by 2015, offering a deeply personal perspective on the importance of understanding and supporting women through all life stages in professional settings.
Pamela opens up about the misunderstandings and lack of education surrounding menopause, particularly in the workplace. She recounts her own experiences with chronic fatigue and job loss, emphasising the need for a more holistic approach to women's health. Through her narrative, we explore the steps organisations can take to create a supportive atmosphere for all employees, touching on critical aspects like self-compassion, gratitude, and the identification of root causes. Pamela's insights are a call to action for leaders to reassess and improve their current practices, creating a more inclusive and nurturing work environment.
We also tackle the unique challenges that black women face in the workplace, especially around health conditions like fibroids and autoimmune diseases. Pamela discusses the impact of societal stereotypes and the importance of cultural sensitivity and comprehensive workplace guidance. Through the powerful metaphor of a Jenga tower, we illustrate how life stressors disrupt women's hormonal balance and overall well-being. Concluding with Pamela's empowering "Phoenix Rising" narrative, this episode is a celebration of resilience and the beauty of rewriting one's life story, offering a refreshing perspective on aging and transformation.
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Pamela Windle https://www.smarterchange.co.uk/
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I'm feeling deeply grateful right now that the guests that I have been inviting onto the show over this last, however many episodes have all been so warm, so generous, so compassionate, so wise, and my guest today is no exception. Welcome to the Henny Flynn podcast, the space for deepening self-awareness with profound self-compassion. I'm Henny, I write, coach and speak about how exploring our inner world can transform how we experience our outer world, all founded on a bedrock of self-love. Settle in and listen and see where the episode takes you. Pamela Windle is a women's health coach. She specializes in working and supporting women working with and supporting women experiencing menopause and she has an additional expertise supporting organizations in supporting the women who work for them as they navigate menopause.
Speaker 1:My intention with this conversation was to expand out from this work that Pamela does with organisations into the wider benefit of weaving compassion based practices throughout organisations in the way that they support their people, whatever their gender, whatever their life stage.
Speaker 1:Support their people whatever their gender, whatever their life stage.
Speaker 1:But it became really clear as Pamela and I were talking that actually the whole topic of menopause and the way that we look at this incredibly important life stage warranted this diving in rather than widening out, and so that is what we did, and my sense is that this is a conversation that benefits each and every one of us to listen to.
Speaker 1:Again, I say that regardless of our gender, regardless of our life stage, and at one point I asked Pamela what is the most important thing that she thinks organizations need to hear or need to focus on, and I loved her response. And I think, if you are someone who works within an organization where you have power, clout, money, actually listening to the way that she talks about the work that is needed might inspire you to do something differently or might help you see that the work that you are doing is well done. All right, my darlings, let's go diving into the conversation. So I'd like to officially welcome you, even though we've obviously just said hello already, but, yeah, like to officially welcome you, even though we've obviously just said hello already.
Speaker 2:But, um, yeah, just to officially welcome you here, pamela, and to say how lovely it is to see you here thank you so much, henny, for inviting me, and it's so good to be sat opposite you right now and just seeing your absolutely wonderful smile.
Speaker 1:Yes, in fact, maybe. Well, we just said, didn't we, that this is uh audio only, but maybe maybe we should be recording this in video as well, because your smile is also just such a part of your presence and and I think that's one of the, this energy that you have is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk with you and and invite you here. Um, and I know sort of, in essence, some of the themes that I sort of suggested that we talk about are things like the work that you do around menopause in the workplace. But I think there's something, there's something I'm really curious about, which is the, the role of compassion within that work and and the kind of wider impact that the work that people like you are doing in the kind of corporate space, the wider impact that that can have on an organization. Um, yeah, so I'm kind of I'm very curious to see how this goes.
Speaker 1:I think, also, I'd like to just sort of share with everybody that you and I met. Like we were just saying that we met uh, we can't quite remember when, can we, pamela? But anyway, it was like some years ago around about that time of lockdown or not lockdown. We didn't nobody really knew quite what was going on, and we did some work with liminal, as it is now known, and so we were really lucky to to share a. So we were really lucky to share a. Well, we were being filmed, weren't we to talk about menopause and that support? And so I'd love to kind of dive in and just get a sort of sense of the work that you do, if you can just paint us a bit of a picture of the work you do and how you came to do it. Actually, I'd love to start there, if that's OK.
Speaker 2:How I came to do it. Actually, I'd love to start there, if that's okay. How I came to do it, yeah, okay. So I mean, it feels like I've been doing this work for a while now and I've met some incredible women, like Rebecca from Liminal and yourself and some other women which are in this community anyway, and other women that I've met online and in person, and it is growing, isn't it, this kind of menopause conversation around women's health, not just in the workplace, but also for individuals. Um, and it kind of started for me back in 2015.
Speaker 2:Um, so I'm currently I'm 58 and I am perimenopausal still. They're really, really unusual and you know, it's been a learning journey, as it is for every woman, but more for me, because the narrative is that, being a black woman, I should enter menopause early and it should be a difficult journey. So I'm not living that, I'm not embodying that at all. Um, but what did happen for me in 2012 is that I came down with a virus an ordinary virus, you know and you expect to get better. Well, I didn't get better and I didn't get better for another six years. I spent probably a year to two years trying to work out what was wrong with me. I lost my job as a consequence of being off sick and I remember um sitting in with my HR manager when I've been off work sick several times and accrued you know the the sickness?
Speaker 1:yeah, the maximum statutory sickness period. I used to be an hr director very familiar with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, ben, and it was a male dot, a male um hr manager, and I was I was 46 at the time and he said um, oh, you know, we have a. We have a menopause policy. I was thinking you are so rude, how dare you assume that I'm in menopause? And this is what this is the menopause. I'm like I'm still having a menstrual cycle.
Speaker 2:You know, I felt great, apart from this fatigue, um, but I just thought how rude and how just out of you know his role to actually bring that to me and I actually write about that in blogs. You know, it's just that you, you can't do that just because role as a manager, it's not your place. And this is where the whole the workplace comes in. And education around women, because it needs to be a collaboration of everybody, not just, you know, a manager or woman that's in the workplace. It needs to be everybody raising awareness about that space so that you can have an honest and open conversation about it, rather than someone just assuming just because you're a certain age, therefore you're in menopause it's really interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1:On the one hand, it's kind of well great that there was a menopause policy and great that you're aware of menopause being a life stage that can affect a woman's experience at work. And it's so challenging when it's just kind of like almost like sort of whomped on the table between you, you know, and and with no, no concept of the sensitivity that's actually around it for the woman as well. And I think it's so interesting that your response was how dare you, how very dare you? Because actually for so many of us as women, like entering into perimenopause, a lot of us are in the denial or doesn't doesn't even cross our mind that that might be what we're experiencing. So I think there's there's like there's so much uh, lived experience in what you've just shared, just in that little story really yeah, but I didn't know about perimenopause at that point.
Speaker 2:I knew of the menopause, but perimenopause wasn't something that was talked about. So he assumed that I was in menopause, which is the full throes of it. He wasn't assuming that I was a woman that was perhaps in perimenopause. Maybe he hadn't even heard of paramenopause. Yeah, of course it's 2012, yeah, and anyway.
Speaker 2:So, being sick and having all this time off, I eventually lost my job as consequent, and my GP was saying oh, you know, we think you've got chronic fatigue syndrome. And I was like no way have I thought that I'm mispositive, I'm healthy, I thought I'm fit because I equaled fitness to health and it really isn't. And you know, I've got a really positive mindset. I don't, you know, I haven't got that. This is something that only people that are negative get, you know, um, and whilst it was chronic fatigue and a syndrome and the word syndrome is means that we don't know why you've got this chronic fatigue but they do put you into like a category. Well, you have this syndrome, we've, we've done all our tests available to us and we don't know why you're sick. Yes, there could be some psychological aspects to it, but you're going to be a reason it has to be something, that, one, I can get better and two, why I just can't take this information you're giving me, that this is just how things are.
Speaker 2:No, so my curiosity led me to then 2000, let me think 2015, where things started to shift into understanding why I was sick. Understanding why I was sick, and that was when I did my training as a woman's health coach. So integrated woman's health coach, which is under the umbrella of functional medicine and functional nutrition, that's where it's come from. So we, we look for root cause. What is the root cause of dis-ease? And so, for me, then, after doing some diagnostic tests to find out what the root cause, it was a virus called Epstein-Barr, which, in 2012, might have been when I had it.
Speaker 2:It might have had it as a child it might have reignited in 2012, but basically my antibodies were raised, so my body was acting as if I had an active virus in my body gosh, I mean it's so.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting like listening to you and also watching the watching the expressions on your face as you're sharing that story, because there was this huge smile, as you said, me being me, I was curious and I kind of, and there was like this energy that just came up and it was like, and I felt sounds a little bit more than curiosity to me, sounds also a little bit like uh, no, I am not just accepting that diagnosis and I think I'm sure for people listening, actually, that that will resonate those times. Know, we all know somebody who's received a diagnosis at some point where they've just been told and that's that without really being given like the sort of doorway or the pathway to finding out. Well, what else could I do that might support me? And I know nutrition is a huge part of that support that we can all access actually, isn't it? Um?
Speaker 1:And yeah, it's, it's really interesting how, um, you mentioned Rebecca earlier of liminal and I know that's that you know what led her to create those you know amazing supplements that she's created for women experiencing menopause was because she was basically told by her GP go and get something off the shelf at Holland and Barrett and she went. I don't know if these are actually the thing that I need. I'm going to start investigating. So there's, there's something really important about this power of listening in to our own body, our own wisdom, and saying actually, is that is, are we just going to take that or are we going to step forward and see if there's another route? I really love that. Thank you so much for sharing that, and you touched on how that experience that you had with that HR director might have informed the work that you're doing now informed the work that you're doing now. Can you just give us a sense of the work that you do within organizations and how you help them, help their people more?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think, because what happened with me, having lost my job, having gone down that HR route, and how stressful the whole of that is when you're not well yes, I perhaps was in perimenopause, but that wasn't the thing that was causing the fatigue, and so when I realized, actually my perimenopausal journey has been somewhat, a lot easier compared to the women that we hear, the stories that we hear, the women that are really struggling with anxiety, rainfall, energy problems, low libido and so forth and so on to me, because I'm living testimony of someone that was I, like I said, I thought I was healthy because I was fit you know health and fitness and having been so sick for a long time you know I spent five years housebound and and recovering from that and thinking, oh, my recovery from having that Epstein-Barr activated antibodies is meant that actually I've kind of bypassed all of those things that women struggle with just accidentally and and in that I'm here because, because the rest of your system was so low, maybe it was almost like that other stuff if, if you'd been feeling better, you might have noticed that other stuff, but because you were feeling so low, it didn't register for you.
Speaker 1:Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2:No, what I mean is that because my systems, my body systems, were in such an unhealthy state, so sub-optimal, as I was healing from that or recovering, we supported all of my body system and in supporting the whole body systems to suppress the virus, in doing so, it also helped the my hormonal system as well.
Speaker 1:beautiful, yes, because there is so much evidence around. So if we manage our stress levels better, then the sex hormones that we have can operate more effectively, and so we get more of the benefit from those. And so, yeah, beautiful, I love that, and I think you know what I'm hearing is. The learning is this I'm sort of slightly wary of using this term, but holistic, because I think it's had it's been sort of messed about with the meaning of. It has been messed about with but this holistic approach to our health and not simply, like you say, assuming that just because we're fit, that we're also, that the whole of the system is operating, you know effectively, that we take, you know, this more kind of whole person approach, then we're going to be able to navigate different things that appear on our life's path in a way that we might not have been able to if we didn't take that approach. And that, yeah, yeah, that really really speaks to me. Um, how, how did self-compassion support you or how did it feature, actually, in that time?
Speaker 2:well, I had nothing. I couldn't do anything else but to be honest, because five years is a long time to be half bound. Five years, a long time. To really not know yourself anymore, um, five years not to have, you know, to have the, the freedom to live your life, um, from a economic status, yeah, is, you know, I live on my own. So income, no, not coming in. You know, money was going out but not coming in from friendships, relationships, a mother, um, yeah, so I had to. I had to.
Speaker 2:I, you know, somebody told me you're gonna live five years in your flat and you're really not going to move around very much. I'd be thinking, oh, my god, there's no way that I can do that, there's no way I'd rather not be here. And there were times when I did really feel like that, that I'd rather not be here. There was really twice, should I say, when it was quite a strong feeling. But I guess in all of that I was using all my skills, self-compassion I was manifesting, I was speaking to myself on a daily basis, I was journaling, I was doing all of those things. Gratitude I was, I was doing all of those because I somehow, I knew I don't know how, but I knew there was an answer. I knew there was a reason why I was sick, but I just didn't know when it was going to come.
Speaker 2:And I really believe in manifestation and even if you, you're asking why, instead of I can't open up that conversation you know your thoughts and your mind then you're opening up something else that's bigger than you and then you know that thing that you need will come to you in a form, and it did. It came at the right time, um, and you know, I'm here and I, in terms of the workplace stuff, that is my, that is my mission in the workplace, because I think the conversation around the menopause is such that isn't this why we're connected, isn't it? Because, because of Rebecca and she has this thought herself and an ethos to her business, um, is that, yes, there is this hormones, a chain of hormones, not just the three hormones that we often just hear about. There's a chain of hormones that also affected by a chain of glands, many they're affected by a chain of nerves and arteries and thoughts, like energetically as well and bones and microbiome.
Speaker 1:You, know, and external environment as well.
Speaker 2:It's huge it's huge, isn't it?
Speaker 1:And so I know that my journey to wellness incorporated all of those things, and I know that every woman can feel and look amazing in her own way, whatever that means to her, but she can certainly feel vibrant and strong when we do all that, and it might be overwhelming, but we just do it slowly over time, and then it works and actually I'd like to interject and men in there as well, because, because the, the, although the, the life stage shift, the hormonal shift, um, with the cascade of everything that you've just talked about, although that is a, you know, a kind of a female experience, the, the truth is that, you know, whatever our gender, whatever our life stage, this philosophy that you're talking about really is applicable to every single one of us, isn't it? And, pamela, I really really want to honour those five years. You know, like the, the resilience and and the, this sort of self-awareness that must have been present with you to have to have seen. Well, these are the, these are the practices that I need to be investing in, rather than putting your energy into the why me, which is, which is a very understandable mindset, isn't it, when we? We get sort of into those kind of thought loops, but it sounds like you really held yourself, um, and particularly in those two occasions that you just touched on as well, that willingness to believe that there is a way through, that this can be different, and I'm so aware of that phrase. You know this too, shall pass.
Speaker 1:And also, I really want to call out what you just said about how, sometimes this experience of becoming well, or the journey to the feeling that we want to get to, can look so long and can feel so overwhelming that it just becomes another stick to beat ourselves up with. You know, we often hear about this, don't we? How like wellness can become yet another like burden, whereas actually, as you say, you know, if we go gently and just start with something small, some tiny little thing, that's a little gift to ourselves, that can be, you know, so momentous actually and move us forward. I'm really interested in how, the way that you approach the work that you do in organisations, how you see that influencing, um, the way organizations actually respond to the whole menopause, perimenopause, post-menopause experience yeah, the the work.
Speaker 2:The companies that I've worked with are very, very. When I speak about the menopause, that whole three phases of menopause that you just mentioned, a lot of companies are surprised in terms of how I speak about it. Surprised in terms of how I speak about it because there was a strong narrative. Isn't there? That's out there, the really strong, and so that's what everybody believes, that's what it is, um, so when I speak about it, I the feedback that I get is that I've never heard it spoke about in that way.
Speaker 1:Can you define in sort of two or three sentences like how what are your headlines that you say in terms of how you speak about it?
Speaker 2:so I I one of the things I I really like to do is is just think about our bodies as a jenga block. You know the game jenga, yeah, and so you know, when you make the tower block and you have it's like an encasing, isn't it? I think it's on the outside of it, then you make the block and then you remove the block and it's then you remove the case and it stands freely on its own. But I consider that little case in our mother like this is us the block as women, and we remove the, the support which is our mothers and we are, you know, us, and each block represents, if an incident, an event in your life, an illness, a medication, a relationship breakdown, a loss in some way, some limiting beliefs that you've been told about yourself, racism, whatever, sexism, all of it, and each, each block represents one of those. So, for everything that you've gone through to this point in your life, now we just take a block out and you can see that the jenga block then becomes a bit unstable and then the hormones are like an orchestra, a finely tuned orchestra, but because of the jenga block, having these little blocks taken out and it's a bit unstable, some of them may take two blocks out, for example.
Speaker 2:A lot, you know something tragic might take one or two blocks but makes it even more unstable, maybe around your 20s and 30s or something, yeah, and that then affects the orchestra. So the orchestra is not sub-intuned anymore, the celloist isn't help anymore, so one man down or one person down, and then as you go through life to get to perimenopause, the orchestra is malfunctioning anyway as it was further impacting the djenga block and you can start to see that the djenga block becomes even more destabilized than affecting the orchestra and you can see two together then are malfunctioning not as well. And so when people realize actually it's not just orchestra, it's all these other things, these life events, these medications, these thought patterns, these over exercising, these, you know, living up to patriarchy, society rules and everything else that goes with it, all of those things that affects that, and I think when women and men that I work with in an organisation understand that, they sit back and go oh, it's not just the orchestra, beautiful.
Speaker 1:That is so, that's so beautiful, because I know your analogy about the orchestra. I'm familiar with that one and I've always very much liked it. But the Jenga, I think, is really, it's really really interesting to this understanding that actually the timing of these hormonal changes, um, in alignment with because often we talk about, you know, with uh in midlife we become the sandwich generation. We've got, you know, kids, uh, maybe quite young kids these days actually, or kids going through their own hormonal changes or or leaving home. So that causes that's a stress in the family system and in the internal system. And we've got aging parents or, um, or we've got, uh, additional responsibilities at work because we're more senior or whatever it might be. So we get kind of squashed in all directions. So I've I've often sort of thought about it in that sense. But there's something about. I mean, it's slightly uncomfortable for me actually to sort of think about this in terms of when I apply that to my own experience of menopause, and that time I had early menopause, but if I look at the woman I was then and someone had said that Jenga example, I think I might have gone. Oh yeah, that feels very resonant and and and I think I've been putting my blocks back in and I suppose that's that's really the work, isn't? It is being able to understand okay, well, there's this grief here. What does this, what does this experience of this grief need in order to be restored, to bring that part of me back into place and to start to feel whole again? Yeah, that's really.
Speaker 1:It's a really lovely imagery and I can imagine, having been a senior exec in big organisations, that that is quite an unusual way of talking about it, because often what we're looking for is a quick fix, isn't it? We want an organization I mean, you've touched on racism, you know we want an organization to come in talk to us about bias and give us some really sort of quick hits, quick wins, and then we can tick that box and go. We no longer have unconscious bias in this organization, which is obviously the most ludicrous thing, because unconscious bias is unconscious. But in exactly the same way, I've seen the same thing happen with the way that menopause has been treated. There are a number of With the way that menopause has been treated. There are a number of, you know, organizations going into big companies talking about menopause as though it's an affliction.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite headlines was menopause can strike at any time. I'd just like to pause there for the shocked expressions on our faces. But, um, you know, and actually being able to come at this from such a human, centered, rooted place that really talks about this is the whole person we are talking about. Not just, not just, you know, send them off to a doctor and get HRT as the only answer. Um, that feels really, really powerful. Um, what's the impact that you're seeing that talking in this way has well, I think, with the impact.
Speaker 2:So, because it companies are measuring things, but I think it's going to take time and and what I'm finding is that because there are these larger companies going in.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're both. We're both being very careful about what we're saying, but, yes, we recognize that that some of it perhaps is a little two-dimensional yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the companies that I've worked with are okay, well, let's just digest this. Maybe they've had menopause training before and it's kind of blown their minds really, because, because it was this one dimension um story about what it is, and so, you know, women are kind of, and you know males in the organizations are kind of thinking, well, what, how can we truly, truly, truly help these women to maintain their roles in their job and and work for as long as they want to work for, and then the next generation of women that are coming up as well, that are in their mid-30s right now? You know what's it going to be like for them in 10 years? So the work is ongoing, really, and I say organizations, the ones I've worked with, are open to having that conversation um ongoing and and also the other thing that I like about the ones companies I've worked with, they are really sort of open to taking on the things that I share with them, that holistic um approach that you talked about earlier. So it's a wider thing and I think about workplace and menopause.
Speaker 2:It needs to be a relationship with so many partners and so many um relationships. Yes, it's HR, it is managers, line managers, the person that's going through it, her colleagues in the workplace, male or female, young or old. Um, you know ethnicity, whatever her gp, perhaps, and then maybe it is her yoga teacher, maybe it is her mindfulness teacher, maybe it is a nutritionist, maybe you know.
Speaker 1:So it's like a nutritionist, maybe you know. So it's like maybe it's also her partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah children friendship group. Yeah, and the wider community as well, but it is that, you know, in the Jenga blog, as we're like putting things back into place. You know, we know that it takes a village to raise a child, but it's a village to to support us all, isn't it?
Speaker 1:do you know that's? That is an expression that I have been, that's been going through my head recently. Actually, you've really this idea that that, in order for any one of us to feel okay I've been coining this word to gathering, this idea of not gathering, because that implies someone's like telling us to do it, but a sense of coming together, so togethering around around each other, in order to to that inter dependence that we actually have, the way that we are interdependent and supportive of each other, rather than codependent or dependent or independent, which means sort of isolated. But this sense of coming together and yeah, it does, it takes a village. We all need it.
Speaker 1:You know, even those of us who are, you know, deeply, deeply private or, you know, really really crave our own space and our own company. Even us, like we need, need that, that connection with others. And and I think it's so interesting, you know you're sort of what you're doing like enabling is it's so logical, isn't it? It's? It's it's so obvious and I think so often when we are, particularly if we're in the workplace, our mindset becomes workplace focused the fact that every single person there is a uh, you know, a partner, a parent, a child, a friend, volunteer, uh, you know, whatever. All these other aspects of ourselves are also also really important parts of how we show up in the workplace as well yeah 100 percent.
Speaker 1:Um, so you won. You won an award recently, which was the thing that prompted me to reach out to you. Can you, can you tell us about it?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I won an award for my contribution to the BSI um menstruation, menstruation health and menopause workplace guidance um, which is the first of its kind and it's been downloaded in over 800 countries. So we won the award for the social impact for that guidance um, which is incredible really to be on. You know. Have my name there, um, as being part of the community or committee that um, you know, put the guidance together and the guidance is is a you, something that organizations can use workable tools in there.
Speaker 2:And while I think one of the things that I contributed to was the intersectionality bit around, you know, nuances around race and ethnicity and those things that affect black women that organizations might not even be aware of, for example, fibroids it's really highly prevalent amongst our community. We don't know why. There's some research that's just stressed that it's to do with circulating higher levels of oestrogen, or the testosterone aromatizes, so it transforms into more oestrogen, so we have more circulating oestrogen in our bodies. Um, why we what we know? One of the reasons why we know that testosterone aromatizes into oestrogen is that cortisol. So they think that black women are obviously more sensitive, greater amount of stress.
Speaker 2:Yeah, more sensitive, yeah, sensitive cortisol and therefore, you know, they're growing more fibroids. They believe, um, but there's very little research into that anyway, and it is american as well. That's where the research is coming from too, um, but nonetheless it is more prevalent amongst our community community, and therefore those women are likely to enter menopause much earlier as a hysterectom, even if they keep the ovaries there. So you know, then there's autoimmune is really prevalent amongst our community. You know sickle cell, other autoimmunities as well. When the hormones start to change in the perimenopause, this progesterone acts like a anti-histamine and so when oestrogen is out, when it's out of balance that progesterone and oestrogen, we've got more oestrogen anyway, haven't we and our body become dominant, um, and therefore autoimmunity can be and therefore autoimmunity can be exaggerated at that point too for every woman. But I think we just need to talk about that in terms of you know how that affects black women in the workplace. And then there's conversations around, beliefs around, you know. You know there's notions that black women are stronger is. We've seen that in the, you know, the birthing, childbirth situations are um five times more likely to die in childbirth because they're not listened to um.
Speaker 2:So it's similar that in in menopause as well, and black women generally look younger than their work counterparts and they aren't taken seriously at the GP. There's also the angry black woman. You know not having the same kind of allowances in the workplace. If she's having a one of those typical menopausal symptoms of feeling irritated, you know her white counterpart is likely to experience a different response or support than a than black woman. So it's those kind of conversations that organisations need to be aware of as well when we're talking about the menopause. Whether they're true or not we don't know, but this is what we hear from black women.
Speaker 2:So the guidance, the workplace guidance, has so many tools in there that an employer can take and really start to make a change. But, as we know, a guidance is saying you've got to implement it, it's got to be part of the ecosystem of the company. Everybody needs to be on board with that, and it's similar to when I work with women on a one-to-one. You know you can know the stuff, you can google, you can. You know you can read, but are you doing it?
Speaker 1:and I. Well, it comes back to to what I was saying about. You know, the sort of unconscious bias training that I, you know that was happening a lot when I was in the workplace a few years ago and so much of that I saw was really a tick box exercise. You know, it might have started from a good place, but the way it actually ended up getting delivered was like, right, we've got to get this done, as opposed to there is something really important in here for our cultural sort of identity and focusing on what that shift could be rather than the getting done thing. So you're, I mean, you're so right, I mean it sounds, it sounds absolutely brilliant what you've contributed to and the fact that that material is there for organisations, because there are so many nuances in there. And you're so right.
Speaker 1:Of course, you know, if you don't have the experience of being a black woman going through or navigating perimenopause, it's very hard to to stand in her shoes, just as it's very hard to stand in any one person's shoes if you don't have that direct lived experience. Um, and it also it kind of reminds me of, uh, you know, one of the things that I became very aware of when I started working with women going through menopause was the number of women I was meeting who um had and now I'm having complete brain fog, which is my post-menopausal um lag, uh, endometriosis and the absolute lack of awareness that, if you you know a woman experiencing endometriosis is is going to be very likely, because of her treatment, experiencing perimenopausal symptoms as well. And even doctors not even telling their patients that is what they're going to experience. So you know, when we layer all of this stuff in and we talk about the Jenga stack and we talk about the orchestra, it becomes even clearer.
Speaker 1:You know why, why this experience can be so challenging, not just for the individual, but also for those who are maybe with the best intentions, are trying to do the right thing, but if we don't have the information, it's very hard to do. That, isn't it? Um, I'm also sorry though.
Speaker 2:So all those conditions endometriosis, pcos, pmdd, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, fibroids, um, and then the neurodiverse as well. On top of that, all of those. You then apply an imbalanced hormone to any of those things, she's not going to feel great.
Speaker 1:No, it's no surprise, is it? It's no surprise that we don't feel great in those moments, yeah, and I mean, you know all of my work is grounded in compassion and I know it's absolutely threaded through everything that you do as well, and I just sort of you know, with everything that we say today, the importance of holding ourselves with compassion and holding each other with compassion, as we're. You know, there isn't necessarily a script for how to navigate all of this stuff, um, but there is wisdom that we can lean on and if we hold it with compassion, then that will make it easier. And I kind of thinking back to your HR director and I just kind of sounds like maybe if he'd had this or heard this conversation before he spoke with you, it might have really helped him with how he navigated that conversation with you. Yeah, oh, honestly, it so, so interesting listening to you and I will share your details, obviously, so that if people do want to explore, you know, the wisdom that you can bring, uh, in their place of work.
Speaker 1:Um, I think it would be. It feels like something that everyone needs to talk to you. To be honest, pamela, I think I'm going to ask you a question, now that I ask all of my guests. In fact, I'd like to ask you something else first before I do that. But, um, what's your sense of the most the most important thing that an organization, um, or someone who's leading others needs to be aware of? What's your sense of like the most important thing they can hold true?
Speaker 2:The most important thing? Wow, yeah, just one thing, I think. If you are a leader of an organization and you hold the purse strings, so where do you invest your money? Is important. Are you investing it in the right place?
Speaker 2:are you investing it in those people who are menstruating, who are having challenges? Are they getting the right support in the workplace? Because I remember working with an organization and I was running a small group of coaching sessions for the organization and there's one lady in there that was south asian and she hadn't spoken about menopause to anybody, no one. She couldn't speak about it at home, she didn't talk about it at work. She loved the job. She had fear of losing the job because she couldn't remember anything and she broke down in that space. So if that organization didn't think you know, we're not just going to do a lunchtime learn, we're not just going to pay for leaders to have this, this, and that they actually invested in their team, gave her the space to be heard and seen and then tools to navigate her journey, so I guess that would be the one thing I would wish for an organization to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very powerful and I also, you know, and fundamentally I love the fact that you brought it back to, to that investment, because one of the things that organizations are often very good at doing is turning putting the onus onto the individual. Um and you know, I see that sort of in the past with like sort of mental health, um sort of programs, you know, putting the onus back onto the individual or the work that I do, um supporting people with, like navigating big changes in their lives and and that essentially means getting that individual to invest in themselves and, whether that's financial or in terms of time or energy, um, the onus gets put over there. But actually there is a responsibility and a huge value to the organization to be able to provide those kinds of spaces, because for that woman to be able to speak openly in a about something that may have been layered with a whole load of complexity, that builds loyalty and that builds, you know, longevity, and that means that you get to maintain that member of staff and it's much cheaper to keep somebody than it is to recruit someone new, says the ex HR director. You know it's so there is so much value in where that money gets spent. So, yeah, brilliant, I think.
Speaker 1:Often we're a bit kind of shy about talking about money, but it's important, obviously, you know. Okay, now, all right, I'll ask you my other question then. This is more about you, pamela. Okay, so if this part of your life was a chapter in your book of life, what would the chapter heading be called?
Speaker 2:oh, my goodness, some of this conversation with a friend recently, literally this week, I'm sure and said those exact words no, that's hilarious, and so what's your answer?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I'm the star in the in the book, the main character, and right now I would say I feel I am right now and how marvelous that, as a 58 year old woman in perimenopause, you are sitting here with the most glorious smile on your face saying Phoenix Rising. That is turning so much of the narrative just in that, turning so much of the narrative on its head, and that is bloody wonderful. I think. Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much for being here. I've absolutely loved it. Thank you.