the Henny Flynn podcast
A space to settle in and listen — and see where the episode takes you. This gentle, reflective podcast is an invitation into deeper self-awareness with profound self-compassion. Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change, and find a greater sense of flow.
There are no fixed answers offered here — just space to be with what’s true, and to grow from there. If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you.
Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds.
the Henny Flynn podcast
Nature, Art, and the Essence of Compassion, with Paul Smith (S15E1)
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
Today I'm speaking with the sculptor, ceramicist, artist Paul Smith.
I first came across his work many years ago and have always been struck by the powerful quality of compassion that, for me, sits within the pieces he creates.
Since then I've (joyfully) brought two of his pieces into my home - you'll hear more about what they represent to me... and how Paul keeps his own interpretation of his work open, so each person finds their own story within them.
It was a joy to speak with Paul and I'm delighted he accepted my invitation to join us here.
In our conversation, we explore the profound interplay between compassion, creativity, and masculinity. We touch on how true human connections, such as heartfelt hugs, are mirrored in creative works and the concept of gestalt, where intertwined figures symbolise both unity and individuality. And Paul shares his insights on the importance of compassion in our relationship with the natural world and the critical need to protect keystone species. His reflections highlight how creativity can foster a closer connection with our environment - as well as with our own emotional landscape. Toward the end of the episode, we come to understand this conversation is really about balance: balance in the beautiful work Paul shares, the importance of balance in nature and how we create balance across the different aspects in our inner and outer lives.
I loved speaking with Paul. I hope you enjoy listening.
MEET PAUL & see more of his work:
INSTAGRAM: @paulsmithsculptures
REFERENCES:
Women Who Run with the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype, by American psychoanalyst Clarissa Pinkola Estés (My enormous apologies for getting her name wrong in the episode!)
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welcome back to season 15. Oh, my goodness me, and I feel like I'm bringing a very different energy from the one that uh ended season 14 and um, thank you, thank you for coming back, thank you for being here, thank you for listening to um, that last episode uh, of 14. I've had some really beautiful messages about this relationship, the interplay between creativity and grief, and I really appreciate everyone who's written to me. Today. We are also talking about creativity, but from a slightly different angle. This is about creativity and compassion, and I am so delighted to welcome with me the sculptor, ceramicist, artist, paul Smith.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Henny Flynn podcast, the space for deepening self-awareness with profound self-compassion. I'm Henny, I write, coach and speak about how exploring our inner world can transform how we experience our outer world, all founded on a bedrock of self-love. Settle in and listen and see where the episode takes you, okay, paul. So, uh, all the technical challenges uh overcome and here we are and it's it's so lovely to um to welcome you here, and also it brings back the memory of when I first met you and came to your studio, which we'll talk about in a bit, but I just want to welcome you here really.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. It's good to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great, and I wondered if you remembered that moment of when we met in the same way. It's slightly fishing, isn't it? It's like do you remember me, paul? Moment of when we met in the same way. It's slightly fishing, isn't it? It's like do you remember me, paul? Um, but do you remember the story around how I found you wasn't sure if you would or not? Um, it's been a while. It's been about a while about before Covid, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:it was before Covid. Was it something about a creative writing um session that you were leading?
Speaker 1:oh, there is something, there definitely was something around the writing. It was, um, I I had seen, years and years ago, I had seen one of your pieces, um, that I, as Little Red Riding Hood Hugging the Wolf, and I just remember feeling so struck by it that at the time I took a photo and just because there was something so beautiful about the way they were engaged with each other it was actually, it was a really big piece in a gallery in Cambridge and I carried this photo, you know, around in my phone for a long time and then it reappeared. You know, sometimes sort of your phone will like sort of throw a photograph up to you and when it reappeared, I looked at it and I suddenly realised the reason why it had resonated so strongly with me, and it was to do with writing, in the sense that it was my journaling had helped me connect with a part of me which I saw as this black dog, and when I saw the picture of this piece that you'd created, I just went oh my God, it's me, it's the young girl in me hugging this black dog, this part that I'd identified as being my anger, and that's something I'd always been very frightened of, that's something I'd always been very frightened of, and so your piece of art helped me see how I'd actually connected these two parts of me and I was no longer frightened of my anger anymore. And when I shared the picture online and I shared this story and I had so many messages, paul, from people because I just sort of knew that there was this artist, but I didn't know who you were, shared this picture, I had a message from Belinda Glennon, who's another ceramicist, who said, oh, that's Paul Smith, I love his work.
Speaker 1:I had a message from Liz who said oh, yes, we know, paul from you, know from around here. And then another friend had one of your pieces, another hugging piece, and it just felt like a sign and that is how I came to find you. I tracked you down, paul.
Speaker 2:You'd be surprised how people tracked me down. Yeah, I mean, I've been, I've been doing this full time for well, I'm just doing my accounts today, which, um, which is so this is a great relief from that um, for 27 years. So, um, nearly you know, my 27th year. So, um, I've been around for a while. If I tried to add up the number of pieces that I've made and sold, really, it would be in the hundred, many hundreds by now. Um of all descriptions. So, um, yeah, the images over the internet.
Speaker 2:They're there forever. Of course, they can never be expunged from the universe well, yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, do we ever get rid of anything? That would be a that's a whole other podcast episode, but I so when? When did the your connection with creating these pieces? In fact, will you describe for us the hugging pieces that I've talked about?
Speaker 2:The first few pieces that I made were semi-abstract animals on all fours just standing, quite simple, very, very plain, mainly British animals, farm animals. Paint what you know. They say, write about what you know. So I thought just start from very simple basics.
Speaker 2:And then, as I was building up different themes, I'd always made human figures at art college, some of them about three meters tall, so semi-abstract. So I was always thinking how do I get the human figure back into the work? So animals were selling. I was enjoying making animals, but I wanted to get the human figure in. So I made a sculpture of a human, a female nude, and she was in a crouching position with a wolf by her side.
Speaker 2:Now I sold that oh, I don't know what, about 24 years ago possibly, and I was just looking at it and thinking I didn't plan it, it just came. So who could that be? Where is that from? And then I thought it might be Red Riding Hood reconciling with the wolf, and that kind of opened the floodgates to this new theme. So if I'd have them hugging and that kind of opened the floodgates to this new theme. So if I'd have them hugging, then maybe the wolf is a werewolf and they can actually have a proper interaction.
Speaker 2:So then I thought, well, if it's Red Riding Hood, then maybe Goldilocks might be another thing to explore. So the stories, those stories usually end up quite badly, somebody quite often dies, and they're quite dark. So I thought, well, maybe let's bring those elements together in a more sort of harmonious whole. Um, and what what you said earlier really interests me, the fact that it's reconciling two parts of yourself which, um, I kind of tinkered around with in my head, but not in so many words. So that's quite revealing. I always thought of them as a yin and a yang, and usually a male and a female, as two parts of a whole, but not necessarily that.
Speaker 1:Wow, within us all is the sacred masculine and the sacred feminine. You know we are, we are all, all, absolutely all of it, and and I think I mean I loved the word that you just used there about reconciling that, that sense of um, um being. There's something within that word which is also about being at peace, or making peace, um, and, and I think for me certainly the, the image of the wolf and the young girl hugging, really felt like a sense of peacefulness internally. And and, in fact, when I look across all of your pieces cause I, you know, follow you on Instagram, which I will I'll share the link, cause I think the way that you write and share about what you create is so, it's so, it's just so lovely, it's so authentic. Thank you, um, but I, there are so many of the pieces that I look at, and I look at it through through the eyes of the sort of therapeutic coach that I am, and I just think oh gosh, that's very interesting.
Speaker 1:What is which part of me? Is that resonating with? And which part of the person who says this piece is needs to come home with me. What is it resonating with within them?
Speaker 2:I think it's different for everybody. Yeah, I think I think people, um often it's about a grief process, um, or remembering um people that have gone, or or even animals that have gone, um, it's quite often people have lost their beloved pet and they, um, you know, they they associate the, the wolf or the bear with with that. That creature, um, that's not there anymore, and that's quite.
Speaker 1:That's quite common and it speaks to the different levels, doesn't it that we can? We can see art, we can see um sort of any piece of creativity like and however we see it is valid as well. I think that's really important. Um, and when you, when you think about those hugs I've got um, is it clarissa smith?
Speaker 2:oh gosh, I'm gonna I've got her name wrong but she writes about women who run with wolves.
Speaker 1:Yes, and, and this like analysis of, uh, the Grimm's fairy tales and the the folk tales and what they actually mean in terms of masculinity and femininity. So I think there's something really resonant with what you're saying about that and the uh, like the reimagining of how the story could be. Yes, things don't have to end in a grisly way.
Speaker 2:No, certainly not. I mean, there can be joy as well. The dancing figures I think they express that joy and freedom and a letting go and a release, and I enjoy making them. It's just a case of how far can I go with this? How much fun can I make it?
Speaker 1:And when you think about the hugs the hug as in, you know, this interaction that happens between these two figures when you think about that connection that you're creating, what is it that?
Speaker 2:feels really important? Well, I suppose for me it's the peace between the protagonists. They've come to terms with their previous differences, so they're unlikely bedfellows, if you like. The wolf, or the bear, or tiger or whatever it is, is a big, powerful predator usually, but when I make my sculptures, they always tend to be quite friendly for some reason, and I think that's a manifestation of what's inside of you, isn't it? I mean, it's not. You know, I'm quite cuddly really, so it's hard to. I'm not an actor, you know. As you said something about me being truthful before. I'm not trying to be something that I'm not an actor. As you said something about me being truthful before, I'm not trying to be something that I'm not. And in my sculptures as well, I'm just, I'm having fun and just expressing what I'm feeling, and I think they're quite hopeful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think they are very hopeful. I think there's also I mean gosh, without without going sort of too deep and it becoming a therapy session, but I mean there's definitely feels like there's something in there about you talked about that the protagonist is often this kind of male character. So here we've got this, this male artist creating these very sort of generous and loving representations of masculinity and that's I think that is also engaging and sort of comforting thing actually as well maybe, and that obviously hugs in in their essence are comforting things yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:That's sums it up.
Speaker 1:Really, I think I like that it's funny as well, because when I think about, um, like how hugs that don't feel true, how we know in our system, you know, when someone hugs us and it doesn't feel quite true, you know the kind of back patty, um, or slightly sort of resistant hug Like we know, don't we? And just as when we look at a piece of art I'm sort of thinking about this connection between compassion and creativity Like we sense, when we look at something, the truthfulness of it.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely, and actually you can meld this, the pieces together, that the, the, uh, the figures together, so that they interlock, almost like they're tessellated, almost that they can't be separated. They're, they're um, entwined um, and that can make quite a a guest out whole as a shape, as well as a, as well as a feeling oh, I'd just like to sit with that.
Speaker 1:A gestalt hole with a w, yeah, yeah, that's um, oh gosh, because I'm obviously.
Speaker 1:I have a second piece of yours, as you know, um, which for me, and, and it is two of your two dancing figures, and when I saw it on your feed and I immediately messaged you and just went, oh, I really think these may need to come and live with me and and there is a um.
Speaker 1:So basically, it's for me it's the, it's the dog that's grown up into the wolf and it's the girl that's grown up into the wolf and it's the girl that's grown up into the woman, and they're dancing a tango. I mean, honestly, I will share a picture of this when I share this episode. Oh, it's just so beautiful, but that sort of sense of when you talk about the gestalt whole, this kind of so they are a single unit, just as two dancers are a single unit and yet, and yet you have this sense of their independence and their um, separateness as well, and um, yeah, I mean I look at this piece every day sitting on my desk and it's such a beautiful reminder of how you know, talking about those parts, of how our relationship with those internal parts can shift and grow, and yeah, I kind of like I'd be really interested. I know you said that sparked a thought for you, and is there anything else going on in your head when you think about that, that idea of being part, maybe parts of you?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a hard one to answer. I'm afraid I don't really think of it in those terms directly when I'm working. I just go with the flow, as they say, and let people interpret it afterwards. But there's certainly messages and layers of meaning behind each piece, but which which isn't necessarily overt, because I don't want to lead people. I want to be able to create something which raises questions and provides a general, a general feeling and a satisfying visual thing, hopefully, um, so that all those elements have to work together, yeah, or else it fails as a piece of art, I think, for me anyway.
Speaker 1:And how does so? You mentioned earlier about grief that sometimes that's an emotion that you, that the piece is speaking to, and one of the things that I've been reflecting on a lot recently is how, um, grief can impact our creativity, and also how it can be, um how creativity can be one of our greatest allies as we move through grief. And wrapped in and around all of that is this concept of compassion and creativity, and I just wonder if that sparks any sort of thoughts for you in terms of either compassion or grief or their relationship with creativity.
Speaker 2:I think my work is more about compassion rather than grief, and I think it's directly related to the natural world, in the sense that we are we're trashing the environment. Species are going extinct and I'd like to help, in my own small way, foster a closer understanding and relationship with the animal world, especially um, and protect the animals in the world. We need to protect the environment first of all, um. So without these, these keystone animals that like the bears and the wolves and the lynx and the whales, if we can't protect those, then we can't protect the smaller creatures, and then the plants and the animals and the fabric of the earth itself, the whole pyramid falls down. So I'm trying to do my bit to raise awareness of. You know, there should be a compassion towards the natural world as well as our own species. Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1:I think that's really gorgeous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really do, and that's so interesting. It sort of sparked a thought for me, actually, because so much of my work is about the inner world, which we also need to pay attention to and, um, you know, I read something recently about, um, emotional regulation is basic. If everybody can learn emotional regulation, then it will, um will stop being violent towards each other, will, um, you know, uh, we'll no longer need to distract ourselves with uh, so many um substances, etc. Etc. So you know, there is something really important about this, this connection with the inner self and being able to fall in love with the inner self. But then, listening to what you're saying about that compassion and the really profound and important extension and you know, extension as in outside of self, into the natural world, and how your pieces speak to that is is really really beautiful. And again, actually maybe that also sort of turns those hugs around as well, because maybe then it's like the, the nurturing, you know nature of the divine feminine loving the natural being the, the wolf, the lion, the tiger and nurturing them.
Speaker 1:Do you know what? That's so hilarious, Paul, because I literally hadn't seen it that way. I've been so like centered in on my oh. This is like my inner self being represented through the art of sculpture.
Speaker 2:This is why I like to leave it open to the viewer.
Speaker 1:Yes, Well, and it will still be. I mean, you know it always. I mean, I think for me, you know, that's the point of connection and yeah, it's so lovely to hear that as well. And yeah, and I know you teach others as well, don't you? You teach.
Speaker 2:I've only just started doing workshops really, but I have really enjoyed it. But it's quite new to me. But I've done quite a few demonstrations, you know, before so in the last few years. So I am used to speaking in public a little bit, which is always a great fear of mine. In the past I'd have run away with it, run away from it, but I'm not afraid of it anymore. It's something which I've been Is that part of you?
Speaker 1:is that part of you that have been that was afraid of speaking in public? Have been an animal, paul.
Speaker 2:What animal have you been? Oh, a little fighting rabbit oh. And, of course, every single person listening is now hugging that little fighting rabbit um, yeah, but uh, I think, I think I'm the expert on my work, um, so I'm talking from position of strength. If I talk about my own work, um, and especially when I'm doing a hands-on demonstration, it's, it flows naturally, because I've got the physical clay there, the physical being, as well, as I'm talking to people one-to-one as well, so I can see their faces when they're bored.
Speaker 1:And what's your sense of what I mean? Maybe this is just all sort of part of what we've said before, but I just wondered is there something specific that you see other artists, other ceramicists who are curious about? How, about the work that you do Like what is it that is drawing them?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, well it's. It's hard to say from my point of view, but I'm guessing, because I don't just do the hugs, I make animal sculptures and I still rely on that, that strength, um, that that's the foundation of all that I do in sculpture. So it's the form is the most important thing, it's the shapes, it's, it's the form that's the most important thing. It's the shapes, it's the solidity, the roundness, the weight, the pose of the creature. What people see first, they see almost the silhouette, the shape as a whole, which hopefully burns itself upon their retina and they can never forget it. So I think maybe that's the first thing that brings them in.
Speaker 1:And then you see the detail of the, of the relationships with the combined figures because I tell you what, honestly, there is a quality to the expressions and it's it's not just the facial expression, it's the physicality of the pieces that you create that and and there's a reason why you've been doing this for 20-odd years, because obviously there's something about it that is really resonant, and I think there is this really very special quality around the expression of connection between the figures. I also just wondered, like does compassion play a part in how you see your own work? If you sort of, or how you like, support yourself as you work, are you compassionate towards yourself?
Speaker 2:Not always you, as you work, are you compassionate towards yourself? Um, not always, I think. I think, as an artist making a living from my work, it's. It's not always easy. Um, sometimes you drive yourself a bit too hard, um, and other times you just go go off somewhere else and run away and a bit of time off, which everybody does, of course, um, so I try not to. I try to give myself space.
Speaker 2:Um, I think treating it as a full-time job is the most important thing. So getting up early in the morning, um, doing sort of some pilates, having some breakfast, know, going for a walk, that's as much as important part of the day as making the pieces. Because if you're just working all the time, you're not around an individual and I think it would show in the work it would become stiff and boring. And so I have to get on my bike every now and again go see some friends, um, but sometimes if, if I've got a deadline and I've got to do lots of glazing ready for a show, then I'll you know I'll go in get it the weekend, um, so it, I think it does equate to a you know, a nine to five, five day a week job, but with strange hours and also to your point.
Speaker 1:I mean, if, if you, I think, when we're creating something, whatever that is, whether that's a piece of art, a piece of sculpture, a piece of writing, uh, um, carving, you know, like, whatever it might be um, if, if we lose sight of ourself, then then what gets created can, can be a little less than because, um, you know it. I think that's sort of that's where my you know what I was saying earlier about this kind of idea of like, creativity being part of what can help us when we move through difficult times as well, because, um, it, it, it is a form of like, enabling ourselves to engage fully in what's happening. And if we lose sight of that, I think, yeah, like you said, was it? Um, it could get a bit dry, or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think. I think think it's like anything If you do anything too much, you lose sight of what it's really about. And I think that's why a lot of people's jobs become boring for them, because it's just taking over too much of their life and it's not really where they want to be much of their life, um, and it's not really where they want to be um, so I I I know that I'm lucky um being able to make a living out of what I do, um, but it's it's not all. You know, it's not all. Sitting around waiting for inspiration and, uh, you know having a nice cup of tea and there's, there's. You know there's a lot of of tea and there's. You know, there's a lot of thought and sometimes even anguish over things. You know, over technical problems, and you know, when a kiln fine doesn't work out and everything's cracked, that's the time to swear.
Speaker 1:Or that's the time to really practice the self-compassion yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think it's all about balance. Yeah, the work is about balance as well, because the balance between the figures, the balance between the emotions, the balance between the forms, um so, um, so balance yeah, and out that's what I strive for, I don't necessarily always achieve it oh well, that's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1:because there's um, uh, there's a richard back quote which is he wrote, jonathan livingston seagull and he famously said, um, that we teach what we most need to learn. Oh okay, that's interesting, so maybe a little bit of inside there yeah, get some more but also it, I think, I think to your point.
Speaker 1:It is, it's an ongoing practice, isn't it? It's, um, it's not losing sight of the fact that, um, even if we love doing something, it's really important that we also create space for the other things in our life. Just as, actually, I'd say, if you know, if we're doing something which we don't really love, then finding space for things that we do really love can rebalance you know, um, where we're at and maybe help us see other things that we can make changes with. So, yeah, balance. That feels like a a good um, a good point to reach in our conversation. Actually, I there's a well, one last question, I suppose just to is there anything? Is there anything that you would say to someone who's say, to someone who's listening, who perhaps is feeling a kind of pull to creativity but maybe has got a limiting belief that they're not creative or doesn't quite know, like, where to begin or I don't know something limits them? Is there anything that you would say to those people?
Speaker 2:um, just just enjoy it. If they feel drawn towards that, that mode of expression, then just enjoy it. Um, and I always think of the work of david shrigley. As an artist, his work looks quite childlike in the sense of his drawing, but it's obviously deliberately like that, um, and it's very, very clever. Um, so it's not all about technical ability. Um, it's about bringing something up from inside. It isn't about showing off. It isn't about making somebody impressed with how good you are at something. It's telling story and being true and having fun. So get those, get those pens and pencils out and scribble away and see what happens. Get that bit of clay and just let it happen.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. I think that point around it's not about impressing somebody, because often the person that we're thinking about impressing would be our art teacher from when we were eight or, you know, a grandparent or a parent from when we were younger, or we have that comparisonitis and go so and so so much better than me. And I remember when, um I was at a party a few years ago and uh of an artist who has since become a friend, uh was standing with me and a very, very old friend of mine and uh and this artist said uh turned to me and said so, are you a creative? And I said um turned to me and said so, are you a creative? And I said well, I kind of am. And my friend just burst out laughing and just went. Oh my God, annie.
Speaker 2:You're really creative.
Speaker 1:And I said, am I? And she said, oh, my God, just think about all the fads you've had over the years. And it was actually that moment that made me release that thought, because I think because I was sort of asked if I was a creative that it was like, oh, suddenly that's got meaning and connotations and you know it's heavy, whereas actually are you creative A hundred percent, and I think it's one of the most fundamental kind of human qualities and traits and so often it gets lost.
Speaker 2:Actually, yes, because we're told that we're already not um. But creativity can take many forms, so it might be dance, it might be music, it might be skiing, it might be all sorts of things.
Speaker 1:Rock climbing might be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anything at all they can be very creative and expectative, um, yeah, so um, don't limit yourself no, exactly, and actually, there there comes the compassion, doesn't it? It's like, hold that, hold those beliefs very, very tenderly and and let yourself play. That's it, play, play. Yeah, that's it, okay I'm. I'm going to ask you one last question, paul. Um and uh, it's a question that I I often ask my clients and, uh, I ask my guests, uh, on the show as well. So, if this time of your life was a chapter in your book of life, what would the chapter heading be?
Speaker 2:oh, um, uh, okay, um, um, a chance to go for it oh uh, because I have built up um a certain um I'd call it reputation, but you know certain um um career, if you like, we're allowed to say these people know people know about me yeah, they do, um, and they know about my work, and so I'm in a privileged, privileged position where I could change things. So I think, um, I'm going to be working over the winter on some new work and see where that leads.
Speaker 1:Oh, gorgeous, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. I really felt. I felt the coming back to the truthfulness and I was kind of aware, as I asked it was like, oh, is this a bit big? But I love that, yes, and and so go for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't be afraid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, brilliant, there are all these hugs around you, paul. See, each one of these fierce animals that you create are also powerful figures. Oh right, yeah, thanks for that. Also powerful figures. Oh right, yeah, thanks for that. Okay, well, thank you so much and, yeah, I look forward. I'm going to share pictures, once I send this live, of my two pieces and I'm sure people love the stories behind them that's brilliant.
Speaker 2:It's been fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really has.
Speaker 2:Thanks, annie, thank you.