the Henny Flynn podcast

The Importance of Being Uncertain (S16BONUS)

• Henny Flynn • Season 16

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In this episode, I explore the often uncomfortable but essential experience of uncertainty. 

From the micro moments of personal indecision to the broader cultural and political implications of clinging to certainty, I reflect on why uncertainty is not something to be fixed but something to be honoured. Through stories, metaphors, and personal insights, I share how uncertainty can become a space for learning, creativity, and ultimately growth. This is an invitation to step into the grey, to trust your intuition, and to allow yourself to not know – for now.

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Speaker 1:

so a few days ago, I found myself scribbling in my phone. Scribbling, that's funny, isn't it? How we even use that word. Clearly, I was typing um, but it felt like laying down scribbles. All about this, this idea of the importance of being uncertain and of course, there's a homage there to the play, the importance of being earnest. I then didn't record the podcast for last week, so if you listen regularly, you might have noticed that there wasn't an episode last week, and in a way then I thought, oh gosh, that's an example of being uncertain.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Henny Flynn podcast, the space for deepening self-awareness with profound self-compassion. I'm Henny, I write, coach and speak about how exploring our inner world can transform how we experience our outer world, all founded on a bedrock of self-love. Settle in and listen and see where the episode takes you. I hadn't told anybody I wasn't going to do the podcast. I just didn't do it. It just didn't happen, and I think that it is really important in life that we're able to manage uncertainty. So, and of course, in the environment that we're operating in right now, there's an awful lot that feels very uncertain and and not in a good way. So I would love to share these thoughts that I jotted down. I've got them in front of me. I haven't reread them because I kind of wanted to come back to them fresh. So I'm not quite sure what the order of events is, and what I'm actually meant to be doing is getting ready to go to yoga. So I might have to speak quickly while I do this, but it just felt right to be doing it now and to be sharing this with you now.

Speaker 1:

So one of the first reflections that I jotted down is that sometimes, when we're feeling uncertain or uncomfortable or untethered, we might gravitate toward people who sound certain, and I think we can all see this. I think you know most of us will have an example of a time in our life when we might have done that, maybe ended up in a relationship or a friendship or or a job, or aligned ourselves with a particular boss, you know particular leader within the organization who sounds certain. It's very beguiling when people sound certain, but certainty often stifles nuance and debate and it shuts doors to creativity and fresh ways of solving problems. I have been following quite a lot of the unfolding trans story, the huge challenges that the trans community are facing in America and here and in other countries. And I think that is a beautiful example, really beautiful, terrible example of how absolute certainty about how things should be, must be, will be creates a block and a shutting down and fear for those who don't fit that certain perspective of how things should be. And so for me and I recognize that there might be some really kind of challenging things here you know, we all come from very different backgrounds, from very different socio-political perspectives, and I suppose one of the things that I really just sort of want to say as part of being uncertain is being open to ideas, to concepts and to trusting that we are able to accommodate more than one perspective as we're working out how things truly feel for us. So here's another lovely example of the importance of being uncertain. I just realised that the recording levels on the mic were set really low, so my voice might now sound a bit louder for you. Adjust your machinery as required. So you know this willingness to be open, this willingness to be open.

Speaker 1:

You know, for me, part of being uncertain is really about being awake, and it's often seen as being a weakness. You know this idea of being uncertain sitting on the fence. You know Maggie Thatcher famously once said this lady's not for turning. You know she was, you know she ruled through certainty and it was using that word again very beguiling for many people and so many of the you know atrocities, damage, wounding in the world has been driven by those who are absolutely certain in their beliefs. I'm not, I realize again, I'll sort of, depending on your background, you might see maggie thatcher as a, as a, you know, a, hero figure.

Speaker 1:

Um, for me, um, I see that there was quite a lot of challenge in her leadership and one of the things that kind of shows up with certainty is that it's very difficult to change course when we're very certain. You know the sort of idea of, like we dig in our heels, it's. We are committed to our certainty to such a degree that acknowledging, allowing, admitting that there might be another way, can feel almost impossible for us when we are so stuck in that place. And it can lead to one of my favorite phrases, which is the sunk cost fallacy, and and if that's a phrase you're familiar with and you'll, I suspect, will appreciate it as much as I do, um, it's this concept that we've invested so much in something, um, you know money, emotion, time, whatever that investment might be that it becomes almost impossible to change our minds.

Speaker 1:

Um, you see it often in businesses where, um I don't know so say, there's been a massive investment in a particular IT system and even though the system doesn't work and will never work, the organization has invested so much so far the sunk cost fallacy that they just continue until it. You know, often another leader will come in and go. What is going on here? This is crazy gets rid of the system. I've seen that happen. Um, and you know, we see it a lot in smaller businesses as well. You know, maybe we've um, uh invested um a lot in a particular kind of way of doing business and and set up systems and um, you know, uh, working with, you know, different providers in order to enable us us to run the business in that particular way. And even though we can see it's not working, we've invested so much time, money, emotion in that approach that we carry on. It happens in relationships too. We carry on. It happens in relationships too.

Speaker 1:

So, you know, uncertainty means that we're able to listen more deeply to ourselves and others, and if you get the everyday compassion emails depending on when you joined the flow of emails, you might have seen one of them, which is about the distinction between indecision and being in space decision. So for me, sometimes this sense of like being undecided or being in a state of indecision actually means that I'm in the process of making my decision. I just haven't got there yet and that's okay. So there can be a sort of rush and a pressure to be certain and obviously sometimes we have to make choices even when we're not certain. So learning how to trust our intuition, our deep inner voice, our inner wisdom, becomes really vital so we're able to work with not only the facts and the data and the experiences that we've had that give us those sort of data points, but we're also able to listen deeply to what our intuition tells us and when. We can balance those things together. Equally, it can make it much easier for us to make choices even when we're not completely 100 certain.

Speaker 1:

And if we're someone who, for whom, making decisions feels challenging because of past experiences, maybe we're holding certain beliefs about ourselves that balance, learning how to intuit and also be with all the data can become really, really useful. It's something I've worked with a number of clients on in order to support them with how to make decisions in their lives. And one of the things here as well about this importance of uncertainty is it enables us to remember that we can always change our mind and as a parent, that felt like such a powerful lesson for our son to learn that he was able to make choices and then change his mind about them. And I think often we kind of call that being woolly, or I've got the phrase shilly-shally. I'm not really sure what that phrase actually means, but um, shilly-shallying about, um, you know, not being clear, not committing, not sticking to your guns, you know all of that sort of thing.

Speaker 1:

And actually that kind of rigid thinking is, I suspect you know we can attribute a lot of not necessarily positive outcomes to that kind of thinking and obviously what we don't want to be doing is, you know, sort of changing our mind every second, because that equally keeps us in a stuck place. But to be able to move, to flow like a river flows. Now if you, you know when a river is traveling from the source to the sea, it's not following a dead straight line, it's working with the geography that it's moving through, it's changing direction, it's meandering, it's navigating its way in the best way possible, and we always talk about water will find a way. You know it's not shilly-shallying about and being uncertain. It's doing what it does naturally, and I think one of the things that makes us uniquely, sublimely human is our ability to change our mind, and, in fact, one of the most powerful leadership styles I ever saw were the people who were able to say stop.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting. I wonder why my mind is returning again and again to this kind of corporate world. It feels like there's a correlation here. If that's something that speaks to you, please share a reflection. Actually, you can always just tap to send a comment in the top of the show notes and I'd love to hear if this is resonating for you in a kind of work context. But in fact, whatever your reflections are, I'd love to hear them. So do tap on that share your comments with me button. So you know one of these, this sort of powerful leadership style of you know the people who are able to say stop. You know going back to that idea of the. You know investing huge amounts of money in the IT system and then being and then just carrying on, even though everybody knows it's not going to work. You know this ability to say stop is a powerful leadership skill, because it's not about being mercurial and indecisive, you know, uh, just changing your mind on a whim. But they're able to to exercise this power because they've recognized their sense of uncertainty was valid and something needed to change. Um. So a couple more thoughts, reflections on this.

Speaker 1:

I think also, uncertainty is the liminal space. You know, uncertainty is this, the place between what was and what will be. And in the liminal space we're working in the gray. I often say with my coaching clients that that's what we're doing. We're not looking for fixed, you know, answers, outcomes, measurable statistics. We're working in the gray because actually that's where the richness is, this willingness to be uncertain in a world that often drives us toward certainty, like almost as though that's the only outcome we could ever want. Um, and, and so I feel that there's something really, um, really significant about growth here.

Speaker 1:

Um, in terms of, uh, the willingness to be uncertain is actually the willingness to grow. And in fact, actually there's a quote from mark manson, who's the author of the book the subtle art of not giving a beep, beep, beep. Um, I haven't actually read it. We have a copy on our bookshelf. I've never read it. If you've read it, I'd be curious to know if you think it's worth reading.

Speaker 1:

And but one of the things that he says is certainty is the enemy of growth. So, um, you know, we, we don't really as humans, we don't really as humans, we don't actually expand into our full potential when everything is rigid and fixed around us. We're talking about changes in our professional life or in our family life, or our relationships, our society, our politics, our climate. Really, what we need are the people who are able to work in the gray, to be uncertain, in order to expand their creative thinking and to seek new and maybe surprising opportunities, outcomes, actions. There's, um, there's a lovely uh sort of aspect to this as well. There's a story about the um butterfly which I now can't remember, so I'm not going to tell the story. That's nice, isn't it? You'll have to look it up, um, but there's a.

Speaker 1:

You know, there's a story that I partially recall about a butterfly, and it is so important with butterflies that we don't interrupt their phase of transformation. You know, when they're going from the caterpillar into the um chrysalis I nearly forgot what it's called into the chrysalis and then from the chrysalis into emerging as the butterfly. You know, if you open up a chrysalis before the butterfly is ready to emerge. It's soup, I mean, it's just soup. Where is the butterfly? Where's the essence of life? Oh, that's a delicious question in itself. But you know that transformation has to occur within the chrysalis. And then you know, nature does her magic and this butterfly emerges. But also, as the butterfly is emerging, it's really important that no kind person comes along and just opens up the chrysalis a little bit more for the butterfly to emerge more quickly, more certainly, because, um, the butterfly will die. It has to go through all of those phases.

Speaker 1:

And one of my clients was a teacher for many years and talks about the wobble zone of learning. This space between a I don't know. I do know In between those two places is the space of. I am beginning to know, I am learning what this thing is. And in some schools I've heard it's called the wobble zone, and I think that's a beautiful example of the liminal space.

Speaker 1:

And you know, when we're in the learning experience, we're not certain. We can't possibly be certain because we're learning. And that's the point of learning is that we're uncertain and so we're learning about this thing. If we never allow ourselves to be uncertain, then we never allow ourselves to learn something new, no-transcript. You know to be willing to break out of the constraints of our certainty I'm literally stretching my arms out either side of me. You know, willing to reach into, doing something new, and I mentioned that I'm going to yoga. So much of that. You know learning something.

Speaker 1:

A practice like yoga is about reaching into something new. You know, extending a posture in some way, or you know, holding a posture, um, allowing ourselves to be in that uncertain space of I've not done this before. How would this be? That's curiosity. You know, one of the most powerful tools that we have for creativity and, um, yeah, you know solving, solving the challenges that we face as humans. Um, there was another, another sort of point. God, I feel like I'm like just like boom, boom, boom, this, this is the challenge. When I've I've written notes, I have like, yes, anyway, you're experiencing it, with just lots of ideas around this and really what I'm doing, I I hope, is kind of throwing this all into a mix and then just seeing well, where, where does that take your thoughts? I'd really love to hear from you on this, about how uncertainty feels. I mean, uncertainty feels uncertain. It's challenging, isn't it at times, and that's okay, I think.

Speaker 1:

Another observation I was thinking is I've had a number of people have been talking about uh, chat GPT recently and in fact one of my clients today, um mentioned uh about it and was saying you know or not sure, um, you know they, they weren't so sure what they'd thought about it before they tried using it and then actually they'd found it quite interesting and it's like oh gosh, is that a? Is that a revelation? That's going to shock people, um, but you know it's a tool. I see it as a tool, use it in a very discerning way and I think discernment is a really important part of this whole experience of uncertainty and certainty. In between the two of those is discernment, um, but a tool like chat, gpt or any kind of ai or any sort of computer system, is that they are certain, um, and they'll often give us kind of what it is that we want to know or sort of fixed responses to things.

Speaker 1:

Now, I'm really aware that I could get challenged on this and I'm very happy to be challenged and very happy to be wrong. I don't mind being uncertain, very happy to be wrong, I don't mind being uncertain. But my experience is that often if we we use a tool, a kind of ai type tool, um, often it is very certain and actually really what we need in our life, in our interactions um is lack of certainty, because we need to have this expansiveness as a massive um airplane going overhead. I'm not sure if you can hear that we need to have this experience of sort of being uncertain, being in the wobble zone, being in the liminal space, in the gray, in order to be able to feel our way into. Well, what are all of the other possible ways of looking at this thing, rather than just the one?

Speaker 1:

And I think that is something that, as humans, we are so skilled at doing, if we allow ourselves to be open enough to being uncertain, and I suppose a kind of the last sort of reflection really is that as humans, we also this is the paradox of humanity really uh, at play once more is that we all seek certainty as a means of control, a means of making sense in our world, a means of keeping ourselves safe, but the only certainty we have is that things will change and fundamentally that means uncertainty. That means uncertainty and now I'm sort of right the way back to being really aware of the macro conditions that are surrounding us all right now and the deep sense of uncertainty. I mean I talked about the trans community and and so many communities around us, um, are experiencing deep uncertainty and I, you know I don't really want to to sort of name them all, but we know, we know where there is uncertainty in the world right now, and maybe there's uncertainty in our own lives right now, right now. So learning how we can be with that, I think, is also a really powerful part of this process, and maybe part of learning how to be with it, is being able to just step back a little bit from our need for certainty, maybe even understanding where that need might be born from, and then exploring well, how can I hold space for myself in a state of uncertainty too? And, as is so often the case when something like this sort of lands with me, I then see someone that I love and trust also having similar thoughts. This is the zeitgeist of thinking, I think, and my lovely friend, susan McCully, who has joined me on the podcast several times as a, as a not really as a guest, but as a as a co-creator um she shared um on her email list, which I highly recommend joining if you don't already follow Susan. She's a wonderful writer. Um, she shared a Pema Chodron quote and I believe it's from the book Comfortable with Uncertainty, but I haven't double checked that and the quote goes sticking with uncertainty is how we learn to relax in the midst of chaos, how we learn to be cool when the ground beneath us suddenly disappears. We can bring ourselves back to the spiritual path countless times every day, simply by exercising our willingness to rest in the uncertainty of the present moment over and over again. So there we go. I'm now really late getting changed for yoga, so I do have to go and I am sending you so much love.

Speaker 1:

And also just one last thing, if you haven't and you would like to, if you haven't yet signed up or taken a look at the latest journaling and group coaching course that I'm running. It's a four week live course, online, small group of people. It's all about how do we create change with compassion, looking at the science and practice of self-compassion, but really with a very much a sort of an eye to creating change. It begins on friday, the 23rd of may, and it's a lunchtime session hour and 15 minutes for four weeks every friday lunchtime from the 23rd of may and there are four spaces remaining if you want to join. Well, four spaces at the time of recording. So if you want to join us, I would be so delighted, and if you want to have a chat with me to see is it the right course for you.

Speaker 1:

We use flow journaling. We use some group discussion, we use some coaching, group coaching skills. It's a really, really beautiful environment. I'm currently running one right now on hopes and dreams and honestly, I'm absolutely loving it. Fell in love with the group within seconds of everybody joining together and it would be gorgeous if you wanted to join us there, and it would be gorgeous if you wanted to join us there. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes and you can always find it on my website. To hennyflynncouk and I am sending you a hug and a wave. Thank you, thank you.